57 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I broke down and picked up a Milwaukee PH55 meter. It was only $49 (free shipping) so if I find that it's not easy to use or it's not doing anything for me that ColorpHast strips can, I'm not out all that much.Questions for those of you who use meters: The directions say that the probe should be stored in either bottled drinking water, 4.01 solution or a Milwaukee storage solution. Clearly, bottled water is the easiest and cheapest but is it a good idea to store the probe that way?Also, the meter came with some 4.01 and 7.01 calibration solution (small packets). I saw somewhere else that you should not reuse the solution so I already ordered larger bottles of the solution for future calibrating. How do you guys decide when it's time to calibrate it? Every time? Every X number of batches? Whenever the mood strikes?I am in a phase where I am trying to limit or eliminate variables in my brewing. My Thermapen was one step. Getting my bulk RO water analyzed was another. The ColorpHast strips seem to work okay but I wonder how well I determine the color of the strip based on the color key and how accurate it is in the first place.Any other pearls of wisdom are welcome and appreciated. Cheers Beerheads.

[MtnBrewer]

You've identified all the reasons I don't use a pH meter anymore. One, the probe has to be kept wet. Mine has dried out any number of times so who knows how accurate it is anymore. Also it should be calibrated pretty often. I'm not sure how often that is but I'd guess once a year minimum and probably much more frequently than that. For the accuracy we need I think a meter is too big a pain given that ColorpHast strips are reasonably accurate and super easy to use. And finally, the probes don't stay accurate for very long. They really should be replaced every few years. I've never replaced mine.

[Big Nake]

I have heard this a few times. I have heard of people calibrating their meter every time they brew. Come on. But I have also heard that the technology has improved so I'm hoping to get something out of this. At the very least (and maybe I just have low expectations) I would like to see if what I have been doing over the past few years has been in the area code in terms of pH. Will there be an A-HA! moment when I use the meter? I doubt it, actually. But I do feel that I have gone long enough just winging things and assuming THIS or THAT was right or "Whatever, that's close enough", etc. I am taking better notes. I am getting more detailed about what I'm doing. So I don't expect this to be a magic bullet tool but hopefully a learning experience.

[MtnBrewer]

I don't want to sound too negative. I used mine every batch for the first 6 months to a year and I was really happy to have had it. That gave me the data that I needed to know when to do water adjustments and how. And also how much acid to use to acidify my sparge water (back when I was fly sparging). So I got my money's worth out of it. But it's too big a PITA to maintain and I really didn't get anything out of it after that so I just stopped fooling with it.

[Big Nake]

You don't sound negative... you sound realistic. My guess is that people get the meter, use it, realize that they were uber-close on their pH in the first place and then shelve the meter because it's too hard to use and maintain. The 'maintenance' of things kills me and this is why I put off getting a meter for so long. I was hoping they would come out with one that works like a digital thermometer... turn it on, take the reading, turn it off, put it away. That would be good but if they ever DO come out with one like that, it'll be $3000 or something. I will post back in this thread after I use it. I have a Mexican Dark Lager brewday planned for Saturday and plan to use the meter. Cheers.

[MtnBrewer]

I used to use the $3000 ones (actually probably more than that) in a chem lab I worked in and if anything they're worse but then they're also super accurate. They have to be calibrated all the time. Daily.

[Big Nake]

Indeed. Not for me. Thanks for the insight and I will update this over the weekend.

[Brauer]

I wouldn't consider not calibrating my pH meters every time, but you can check how much it drifts by checking the pH of the 4.0 and 7.0 standard each time. If it reads 4.0 and 7.0, then you don't need to calibrate.The probe is best stored in the storage solution. It's probably a saturated KCl solution, which is probably what is in the probe if this is like our meters. Using that is supposed to help keep the probe from getting contaminated. Storing it in other solutions will probably shorten the life of the probe.You should be able to use the standards over and over, if you keep them from g2etting contaminated. I think ours come with a 2 year shelf life. Store them in a bottle you can cap closed and get a squirt bottle of RO water and rinse the probe off before you stick it in the standards and they should keep for quite a while. If you can make up the solution and store a smaller portion in a bottle that just fits the probe to use day-to-day, then you can toss that now and then and replace it with fresh from the larger bottle.

[SchwanzBrewer]

When you guys use the ph strips do you take the PH of the wort or the water pre mash? The ones I bought never seem to change color and I have been using the wort in the mash. They are the plastic ones that are supposed to be in the range of 4.6 to 5.8 or something like that.

[tag]

I love my pH meter. I've been using one for years. Since we brew different beers over time and our water changes between winter and summer I find it invaluable.

[Big Nake]

When you guys use the ph strips do you take the PH of the wort or the water pre mash? The ones I bought never seem to change color and I have been using the wort in the mash. They are the plastic ones that are supposed to be in the range of 4.6 to 5.8 or something like that.

I mix my mash water and grains and dip the strip (ColorpHast) into the mash (mash temp) for about 10 seconds and then check it against the key. If it's high and I use something like lactic acid to lower it, on the next strip, the color of the pad is noticeably lighter in color (lower in pH) so those strips do appear to adjust and show the changes. Remember too that these strips show the pH .3 lower than it actually is at mash temp so I shoot for about 5.0 which puts me around 5.3.

I wouldn't consider not calibrating my pH meters every time, but you can check how much it drifts by checking the pH of the 4.0 and 7.0 standard each time. If it reads 4.0 and 7.0, then you don't need to calibrate.The probe is best stored in the storage solution. It's probably a saturated KCl solution, which is probably what is in the probe if this is like our meters. Using that is supposed to help keep the probe from getting contaminated. Storing it in other solutions will probably shorten the life of the probe.You should be able to use the standards over and over, if you keep them from g2etting contaminated. I think ours come with a 2 year shelf life. Store them in a bottle you can cap closed and get a squirt bottle of RO water and rinse the probe off before you stick it in the standards and they should keep for quite a while. If you can make up the solution and store a smaller portion in a bottle that just fits the probe to use day-to-day, then you can toss that now and then and replace it with fresh from the larger bottle.

Brauer, thanks for that. I have some small containers that can be capped so I may try to reuse this solution for at least a couple calibrations. So you think the bottled water idea is bad? I wonder why they would even suggest it. As soon as I read it, I thought it sounded wrong. I did not pick up any storage solution so I would either need to find that or bite the bullet and go with the bottled water.

Edited by KenLenard, 19 February 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[Brauer]

Brauer, thanks for that. I have some small containers that can be capped so I may try to reuse this solution for at least a couple calibrations. So you think the bottled water idea is bad? I wonder why they would even suggest it. As soon as I read it, I thought it sounded wrong. I did not pick up any storage solution so I would either need to find that or bite the bullet and go with the bottled water.

This PDF from Hanna Instruments repeats what I was told 30 years ago about storing pH probe, which is that it shouldn't be stored in water. They also mention using the pH 4 buffer as a substitute, if necessary. It mostly comes down to longevity of the probe, but perhaps it doesn't make a huge difference and maybe they figure a $50 probe isn't worth worrying about too much.

[matt6150]

Geez Ken and hear I thought you already had one of these by now!

[Big Nake]

Geez Ken and hear I thought you already had one of these by now!

[HVB]

Ken,Any particular reason that you picked that model over others? I have looked at them in the past and get distracted when I read the comments.

[Big Nake]

This PDF from Hanna Instruments repeats what I was told 30 years ago about storing pH probe, which is that it shouldn't be stored in water. They also mention using the pH 4 buffer as a substitute, if necessary. It mostly comes down to longevity of the probe, but perhaps it doesn't make a huge difference and maybe they figure a $50 probe isn't worth worrying about too much.

My instructions also say not to store the probe in distilled or deionized water. It says to store it in 'bottled drinking water', 4.01 calibration solution or MW9501 storage solution. After your post last night, I found some of the Milwaukee solution on Amazon and ordered it. So now I have larger bottles of the 4.01, 7.01 and storage. Do you think it would be okay to do the initial probe activation with bottled water, the 4.01 and the 7.01 that came with my meter? It says to allow the probe to sit in bottled water, 4.01 or storage solution for 2 to 4 hours and then calibrate. I won't have my storage solution my Saturday (guessing) but I would like to use it for my brew session.

Ken,Any particular reason that you picked that model over others? I have looked at them in the past and get distracted when I read the comments.

A number of people on other boards (and in person) mentioned the PH55 or PH56 by Milwaukee. Many people also mentioned Hanna. I just happened to find this model being sold brand new, in the box on eBay for $49 with free shipping and it was one of the models frequently mentioned by other brewers. I was out with some brewers awhile back and asked, "Can I get one where it doesn't need all these solutions or calibration and stuff?" and they just laughed saying, "No... I don't think they've come out with that one yet". Part of this decision was to lessen the financial impact on the idea that the meter may end up back in the box for good eventually. $49 was a price I could live with for something I may or may not use.

Edited by KenLenard, 20 February 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Clintama]

I've got a pH600 probe and eveytime I look in that black plastic cover it's dry. I'm not sure how the storage solution I put in there evaporates so quickly.

[MtnBrewer]

I've got a pH600 probe and eveytime I look in that black plastic cover it's dry. I'm not sure how the storage solution I put in there evaporates so quickly.

1) Welcome to the board!2) This is exactly my problem too with my Hanna. It has a cover that fits over the probe and it's designed to be able to fill it with storage solution. But it evaporates so quickly that I can't keep it wet. Of course it's very dry here but it still surprises me how fast it evaporates.

[Clintama]

Thanks for the welcome.I'm thinking about trying to come up with another container. IMO, when it dries out, it takes much longer for a reading to stabalize when you use it.Does everyone rinse their probe with distilled water or do you use tap water? I use tap water.

[Brauer]

Do you think it would be okay to do the initial probe activation with bottled water, the 4.01 and the 7.01 that came with my meter? It says to allow the probe to sit in bottled water, 4.01 or storage solution for 2 to 4 hours and then calibrate.

I don't think it will matter. The problem with water is that it leaches ions from the probe, which makes it take longer to form a stable reading. I wouldn't think that it would matter in the short term.